Who says following
everyone
else is the
best path
In our latest Up-Close interview, we speak with Andrea Euenheim, former Chief People Officer at Messagebird and former Head of Global M&A/Geographic Expansion at Amazon.
Can you please tell us a bit about you journey as a People leader, how you got into it and how it has evolved?
It was a bit of a coincidence for me entering into the HR area. I was drawn to the topic of HR during university and the care of people within businesses and I felt that during my study of economics, I found the topic wasn't explored deeply back then which I found disappointing. This made me more curious about how these sorts of things operate within a company. I actually began my career working as a management consultant. I believed this role would provide the breadth I sought in understanding various industries, roles, profiles, and personalities that you find within different companies. However, I soon realised this covered only a small part of the people landscape that I wanted to cover. So I was on the path to becoming a Chief People Officer for the first time around 2000, but the tech bubble burst swiftly, similar to what we witnessed last year. It was an interesting experience but didn't allow me the opportunity to learn as much as I had hoped. Seeking inspiration and continuous learning has been a common thread throughout my different assignments and companies. I've always aimed to ensure that my impact remains significant in the environment I'm in. Because I wanted to learn so much, I had the chance to join GE’s leadership Program, an amazing program for young HR professionals at a global player at the time.
I learned a ton there. It was a fantastic opportunity to delve deeply into learning with others. You've established a community of learners while also solidifying your network effectively. I spent seven years with GE. However, the company had grown so large that there was a constant focus on reorganising and restructuring, without truly comprehending the 'why' and 'how' in a meaningful manner. Then, I got a call from Amazon, which was a rather small company at the time. They offered me precisely what I was seeking—an opportunity to work in a greenfield environment where I could apply the learnings from GE, help establish structure amidst chaos, and ensure scalability. My passion for aiding businesses in diverse dimensions was truly flourishing. It was about venturing onto paths unexplored. I relish the pioneering spirit that HR can have in certain environments. Contributing to shaping industries, both established and new, was something I found deeply fulfilling. For example, during my 12 years I was heavily engaged in M&A activities. We delved into various industries, exploring how to approach things differently and not just thinking about the immediate next step but three steps ahead. This mindset has remained with me ever since so I am constantly asking, “how can we disrupt, innovate, think bigger, and anticipate what lies ahead?”.
Can you expand a little bit on that, what does that translate to when you have that approach to your function?
It often happens that when you join a company these days, they say, "In tech, we do it this way," or "In retail, this is our approach." Who says though that following what everybody else does is always the best path? To me, a key aspect of a robust people function is to disrupt, address the elephant in the room, and genuinely scrutinise why things must adhere to a certain pattern, as well as the repercussions of not doing so. I believe Amazon, in many ways, gave me the chance to approach tasks differently. For instance, we were tasked with handling the shutdown of a business at Amazon in the US. There was significant concern about this potentially resulting in negative employee experience. The debate included a discussion about talent retention versus the necessity to let people go from a company based on the East Coast while Amazon's primary US operations were mainly on the West Coast. We managed to negotiate with the finance department; if we could find hiring managers willing to take on team members on the East Coast, they would provide a 12-month funding allowance for headcount. This strategy was successful in motivating businesses to expand eastward, tapping into talent they hadn't considered before. As a result, about 80% of those who genuinely wished to stay at Amazon found new roles. Initially, it seemed impossible to convince finance, but eventually, we managed it. We devised a compelling argument, stating that under specific conditions and terms, it could be accomplished—and this approach was well-received.
It seems that you have had a great variety of really rich experiences throughout your career, so how do you think these different experiences have built you as people leader?
If I reflect on who I am, not only as a people leader, but also just as a human being, I believe I am someone who loves to bring pieces of a puzzle together that don’t necessarily look at first as though they would fit. And I then like to make this into a new puzzle. For instance, at GE, there was a notable emphasis on their robust performance evaluation process and an intensive focus on assessing leaders and their potential. However, this was not the case at Amazon when I initially joined. Despite the rule of thumb that every role expanded in scope and complexity by 30% annually, we had to identify talent capable of quick adaptation and growth with their roles. My specific focus was on leadership capabilities, an area that needed development. Many highly competent performers at Amazon lacked extensive leadership experience elsewhere. Our aim was to equip these individuals and determine their potential for growth within the company. We didn't want leadership gaps to impede business growth. Therefore, we established a method to assess leadership capabilities at Amazon, but I was able to take what I had learned at GE to create a more refined approach that was better suited to the environment that we were in.
When you look back at all these experiences, what would you say is the highlight of your career and how has that shaped you?
As a leader, my time at Amazon would be the most fundamental phase of my career I would think. It was there that I learned how to scale rapidly and also how to evolve as a leader. Being consistently immersed in day-to-day operations can hinder personal growth aligned with the demands of the role. While I thrive on delving deep into tasks, I had to learn when to delegate within my team—identifying when it was crucial for me to immerse myself in the work and when it was necessary to step back. Similar to parenting, letting go proved to be one of the most challenging aspects. However, acknowledging the need to trust my team was vital. Trusting one's team remains a significant hurdle for many leaders. It's crucial to empower them to learn, recognising that everyone learns at their own pace. Often, the learning curve might not match the ideal speed, but making mistakes and learning from them is an integral part of the journey. I had to consciously train myself not to constantly intervene and solve issues independently and this took a lot of effort from me. Since then, I believe I've developed a much more effective approach in managing my teams and assisting other leaders in navigating similar challenges.
“we established a method to assess leadership capabilities at Amazon, but I was able to take what I had learned at GE to create a more refined approach that was better suited to the environment that we were in”
What do you think makes a great Chief People Officer?
I believe it's a multifaceted profile that we're considering which is significantly different from what it might have been 20 years ago or what would have been perceived as a great Chief People Officer back then. From my perspective, a great CPO today must have a clear view of the future, anticipating upcoming issues crucial for the business to maintain or enhance its success. Anticipating these topics is critical, a skill that wasn't typically inherent in CPOs or the HR function in general. I'd argue that there's no specific training available to help one predict the future accurately. Moreover, a clear requirement nowadays, which wasn't as pronounced a couple of decades ago, is a deep understanding of the business. You really need to immerse yourself in understanding the business intricately, participating actively in meetings and asking pertinent questions, irrespective of whether you hold the role of CFO, CEO, CMO, or any other. Only by comprehending the business, its challenges, and its opportunities, can you craft an effective people strategy—a capability that wasn't necessarily emphasised when I first started.
“From my perspective, a great CPO today must have a clear view of the future, anticipating upcoming issues crucial for the business to maintain or enhance its success”
Do you believe that this has been the biggest shift in this function in the past couple of decades?
I would say so but I believe this development is much more recent and has really only come about to a large extent in the last 5 years. This transformation is rapidly accelerating due to factors like the impact of COVID, crisis management, and the emergence of Generation AI. These circumstances demand that we remain agile and proactive. Previously, being a good Chief People Officer meant having strong relationships with the business and its leaders, reacting swiftly to business developments. However, relying solely on reactive responses no longer leads to success. Today, success hinges on adopting a proactive, truth-seeking mentality.
This is really quite a big shift from being reactive to being proactive and you said above that there isn’t a lot of training on this so what do you think are the skills required to make a great Chief People Officer?
Having functional skills is essential as a baseline, but from a soft skills perspective, it's crucial to possess backbone, effective communication skills, and strong negotiation abilities. One of my bosses from years ago, at a prior company, once questioned the need to improve negotiation skills for an HR role. I firmly disagreed; negotiation is part of my daily routine. It's imperative to articulate clearly what I aim to achieve, understand my current circumstances, and determine the path forward. I must comprehend data to make informed decisions, merging data-driven insights with emotional intelligence. While drawing from experience, I must ensure it doesn't overshadow the significance of available data points. Simultaneously, I need to exhibit strength while being authentic and vulnerable, especially in navigating the softer aspects of the business. Building trust is crucial in this realm. I'm expected to encompass all these traits simultaneously, as everyone in the business assumes a level of expertise in handling people-related matters. They may understand the job's demands but often believe they know better how to execute it. Hence, confidence in one's actions is vital, particularly in HR, more so than in any other function I believe. Another critical aspect is learning. You must stay curious. And finally, something that HR leaders probably didn’t do as much in the past is staying connected to their peer group. Before, everyone was in their own little world a bit but I am pleased that this is changing, and it must as the world is moving so fast, so we need to create these little villages, if you like, so that we can all learn together.
“Another critical aspect is learning. You must stay curious.”
Speaking of things moving quickly, what right now is new in the people function and where do you expect the biggest changes to come in the next few years?
Flexibility has become a key term for me in recent years. It's an attribute we now expect from everyone and everything we engage with. The lessons from COVID underscored the critical need for us to adapt swiftly to sustain business operations. At times, we had to completely reshape our business models to maintain what we were doing. I believe flexibility will continue to be a crucial skill set in the future. Considering the emergence of Generation AI and how it might impact workforce planning, it prompts us to rethink how organisations move forward. We need to analyse the types of skills required, the necessary extent of these skills, and their longevity. Anticipating the future, it's apparent that the landscape of our organisations may undergo significant changes. Previously, our focus was on acquiring hardcore expertise in every function, valuing experts in their respective fields. However, moving forward, we might need to seek more adaptable talent—individuals whose skills can be utilised across a broader spectrum. Furthermore, learning new skills and continually expanding your skill set is essential. We need to be able to help the machines learn from you and gain your expertise so that you have a greater capacity to learn new things yourself. Examining how flexibility shapes our future workforce, the emergence of platforms like Upwork indicates a growing trend among companies leveraging temporary experts for strategic projects—a concept previously unheard of ten years ago. I believe this trend will persist, evolving toward a "just-in-time" approach for workforce planning, particularly for strategic matters, contrasting significantly with past practices. Consequently, there is already an observed trend in the US where approximately 30% of the workforce is self-employed, showcasing a significant shift. This trend is not limited to the US; it's increasingly visible in Europe as well. Individuals possess a range of skills they can offer, not just to a single customer but to multiple ones, thereby providing you the flexibility you seek. This approach allows individuals to delve deeper into topics they are genuinely passionate about, while simultaneously adapting their work life to better suit their needs at various stages of their lives.
Considering the significant events of the past two years, how has it been as a Chief People Officer navigating the post-COVID phase? With ongoing conversations about hybrid and remote work, and also continuing to create culture in this time?
It was interesting for me as I was working for two different companies during COVID. One was a large wholesale company with 100,000 people, 80% of whom worked in stores or logistics, so there wasn't an option for them to work from home. The remaining 20,000 had distinct needs and different concerns compared to those who had to be on-site. Ensuring everyone's protection was a priority, along with questions about what flexibility and safety meant in these different work environments. The second company was fully remote, where everyone worked from their respective locations. However, the common threads I observed were communication and trust. Ultimately, providing store employees with trust in their safety and offering flexibility relied on clear communication. During COVID - and even amid the Ukraine conflict which significantly impacted both companies - open and candid communication with employees emerged as the most crucial aspect to maintain high engagement levels. It became apparent that people needed to comprehend the reasoning behind decisions and the context for any changes, enabling them to adapt. This was perhaps something I hadn't fully appreciated before the crisis, as communication, while ongoing, became the pivotal mode of engagement, especially considering the difficulty in communicating with store employees. Presently, we're witnessing several trends post-COVID, focusing on addressing these specific needs identified during the pandemic, with numerous startups aiming to fill the gaps that emerged.
How do you keep up to date with the latest tools, trends, technologies etc whether that be various resources you tap into or is it more your network that you rely on for this?
It's hard work! I'm still exploring different avenues because I feel I don't always have a full handle on what is always happening. But I have identified three main pillars. First, I stay connected with a couple of venture capital companies that focus on HR tech or HR startup ideas. I listen to their insights about the latest developments, which provides valuable insights. Second, I actively engage in specific circles where diverse topics are discussed, such as AI in the workplace or industry-specific discussions related to my field. This includes participating in HR circles and reading numerous articles, such as those from the Harvard Business Review or McKinsey reports which offer great articles as well. As for podcasts, unfortunately most podcasts I've come across don't offer groundbreaking news in my opinion. However, I enjoy podcasts that share stories about how companies achieve success, delving into the mindset of founders. One of my favourites in this regard is 'How I Built This' from NPR in the US; it's a fascinating podcast. Occasionally, I stumble upon live events shared on LinkedIn where specific topics are discussed, yet I haven't found one that I feel particularly resonates with me.
“We discuss various topics such as the tools we use, strategies for geographical expansion, and what is currently effective or ineffective”
What do most people misunderstand about the People function or what it is to be a Chief People Officer?
I often observe that there are many instances where leaders who haven't experienced an exceptional people function tend to be a little bit suspicious about what to expect. They might leverage you for more operational tasks or view you as more of an administrative function. Sometimes people perceive it predominantly as a cost centre and their inclination is to involve HR only when there are troubles on the horizon, almost like an internal police type of function. When such a perception exists, it naturally leads to a lack of trust, exclusion from key discussions, and exclusion from strategic business topics. It's a challenging situation, and it's intriguing that this perspective still prevails—it's not an uncommon scenario.
How do you try to combat a scenario like the one you have described above?
I usually try to explain to them the value that my team and I can add, extending far beyond their perceptions. There was a case a while back where I proposed sitting down with a leader and their team. We discussed the business strategy for the upcoming 12 months or even the next three years, and I illustrated how this translates into a comprehensive people strategy. In most businesses I've worked in, people remain the most critical asset. It's crucial for them to comprehend that integrating this aspect into their strategy is pivotal. It's not solely about a people strategy; it's an integral part of the business strategy. However, achieving this understanding takes time.
When translating business strategy into a people strategy, or vice a versa, what tend to be the themes that you will focus on from a KPI or objectives point of view?
I call it organisational health. I strongly believe in specific metrics that assist in measuring the health of an organisation, akin to evaluating the fitness of a patient preparing for a marathon. This assessment may vary slightly across businesses and industries. However, some of the most evident metrics include attrition rates, demographics, promotion velocity, etc. These metrics, among others, contribute to understanding the organisation's health. Engagement, for instance, is a multifaceted aspect not solely confined to surveys or Net Promoter Scores. Engagement is complex as different data points are applicable to different businesses so you have to understand what is relevant to you. For example, engagement can be the number of times a manager on average speaks to each team member or the balance between virtual and on-site team meetings, average meeting attendees, alignment with the company's strategy and priorities, and individual commitment towards personal development plans. These factors collectively determine the organisation's alignment. My aspiration is to create an early warning system for organisational health, though the achievement of a perfect set of metrics remains uncertain. Nonetheless, having precise metrics that forewarn about potential shifts within teams within an 18-month timeframe is a goal I strive for.
When it comes to diversity and inclusion, how do you approach it and do you believe that it has become embedded in businesses?
I would say that in smaller companies, D&I is more solidly embedded. It's a well-established topic where most leaders would argue that having a diverse team is a no-brainer. Smaller companies have an advantage; making small changes can significantly impact the overall diversity of their company. Larger companies, however, are still playing catch-up in many aspects within the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion space. I tend to be more concerned that leaders in larger companies know it as a five to ten-year journey to really see a substantial shift. Consequently, diversity initiatives may sometimes become lip service or merely for reporting purposes for corporate governance. There's a wide spectrum of approaches companies take, but we all recognise its paramount importance. It starts with small steps; for instance, considering how a young company builds its recruiting function. A typical practice that addresses diversity is avoiding hiring individuals similar to yourself into your team for example. If people can implement this, they will see the benefit very quickly.
“Larger companies, however, are still playing catch-up in many aspects within the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion space”
What advice would you have for People and HR leaders that are now coming through for the first time given the current context and climate?
I would say stay true to yourself and be self-critical about your strengths and areas for development. Seek out experts in critical areas where you still have much to learn because as a generalist, nobody expects you to know everything. Also, don't pressure yourself to have all the answers to every question that comes your way; you'll figure it out as you go. However, I believe the most crucial thing is to stay curious. Quickly grasp the business dynamics, learn its language, enabling you to engage in discussions using the business's terminology. This way, you can effectively contribute. You'll soon discern the needs and should manage expectations; there's no magic wand to make everything perfect within 12 months.
Is there anything else that we haven’t touched on that you think is pertinent in the people function at this moment?
For younger companies, I've been observing and contemplating the opportune moment to invest more in the people function. I am presently advising several tech and younger companies compelled to prioritise their people functions as they're trailing in addressing crucial people-related issues. They're exploring the ideal structure and decision-making processes for their teams. The biggest concern is that this may impede their growth pace. These companies need to be strategic in determining when to invest in the people function; it should not be an afterthought, which unfortunately remains the case for many organisations. Although recruitment typically takes precedence, there are numerous other disciplines within HR worth early investment. The same applies to private equity companies. Often, when a private equity company evaluates their portfolio companies, they prioritise finance, sales, and product over people-related aspects, considering them later. Last year's lessons emphasised the need for cost-cutting due to over hiring, prompting companies to reconsider their approach programmatically for their portfolio companies moving forward and addressing pertinent questions proactively.
Are there any early signs that tell you “now is the right time to invest in X or Y within the people function” as a business grows?
I wish I had a secret recipe to this! I believe a strong people presence within a company becomes vital when the organisational structure reaches four or five layers. Information flow may slow down, and decision-making processes could become sluggish. Additionally, if your company operates across various time zones or multiple countries, particularly with dispersed teams, it's crucial to contemplate how to mitigate complexity. Having someone dedicated to considering the needs of those individuals located far away, perhaps in different time zones, could help streamline these challenges.
