It's essential
for HR
to be involved
in every business decision
This week we get Up-Close with Julia Carloff-Winkelmann, Chief People Officer at Dance and former VP People & Workplace at SoundCloud. Read about Julia’s approach to measuring diversity and inclusion and the reasons why it is essential for HR to have a seat at the executive table.
What is your career highlight to date and how has that influenced you as a leader?
I have been in HR for roughly 20 years now and I must be honest - the current experience is my highlight. The reason is that when you are a leader in HR, especially when you become an executive, most of the time you come into an organisation, and you have to repair and fix a lot. This time there were three founders and five employees when I was hired, so I got to build out a company from scratch for the very first time. This experience has unquestionably shaped me as a leader which is an experience that is very humbling. I'm grateful for having the experience because for many HR leaders, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity, especially because this is an experienced founding team - all of our three are second-time founders, which is rare. So, for those reasons, this current experience has been a standout in my career.
“This experience has unquestionably shaped me as a leader which is something that is very humbling”
When I started working in HR at eBay, it was mainly focused on people cost and hiring, and the function was considered a cost centre. However, over the years, its role has shifted towards enabling the organisation to be more productive, in addition to building culture, learning and development, and recruiting. As Chief People Officer, my job is to make the organisation more productive, and I'm proud to see that HR is now viewed as a business function.
How do you think the role of people leaders has changed during your career?
What trends or software tools have you seen develop that you have been able to leverage to help the business?
There aren't many specific HR tools that I’m enamoured with, but there are great tools that can help make an organisation more productive. Two that I really like are Notion, which you may be familiar with, and Loom, which is similar to Zoom. Loom allows for curated recordings with a slide deck where the receiver can add comments while watching the recording, and even adjust the playback speed, which can be really helpful.
While not exactly tools, there are two other things that have significantly impacted how we think about HR. The first is the shift to remote work, which was accelerated by the pandemic but has now become widely accepted as a productive way of working. I believe that even conservative managers now understand that you don’t have to work from an office to be efficient. The second is the increasing importance of other benefits like mental health support and sustainable commuting options, which is a positive development in my opinion.
I believe HR will continue to be represented at the executive table, working closely with the CEO, Chief Product Officers, Chief Commercial Officer, and Chief Financial Officers. It's essential for HR to be involved in every business decision since there is no business decision that doesn’t have an impact on people (and organisation). The financial crisis and coming out of the pandemic is also influencing the HR function, requiring a greater focus on productivity and profitability, which falls under the financials. So, I expect to see a closer relationship develop between the People function and the financial team and for this trend to continue beyond 2025, which I believe will be a positive development.
What do you think the future of the People function looks like in 2025 and beyond?
“It's essential for HR to be involved in every business decision since there is no business decision that doesn’t have an impact on people and organisation”
How has the shift from growth at all costs to one of profitability impacted the People strategy?
The painful part is that over the last year (and continuing this year) all of us have had to go through redundancy processes, which is not only emotionally difficult but sets our cost basis to a new level. Some of that shift in financials is healthy but some of it is also critical, as people are more stressed out with smaller teams and lower budgets. As HR leaders, this is an area where we can continue to support the business.
Conversely, sometimes cost-cutting and cost savings can spark creativity, so there are some healthy aspects to it all. If you look at other functions (for example, marketing), when you have a smaller budget you need to think about what you can do to achieve the same results but in a more innovative way. That is the same for our function – if, for example, we can’t afford to spend money on big training seminars then we can start to introduce more masterclasses which we host internally. That path to profitability is, of course, also linked to people costs and you do need to make sure costs are kept in check and that you do not over-hire. An interesting solution to this is employing models such as “stay interviews” with current employees to find out what skills they have and how to develop them to keep them in the business. The interviews themselves are really very similar to when you assess someone for hire, so why not direct those interviews internally instead of letting current employees go and rehiring for them?
“As a Chief People Officer, my job is to make the organisation more productive, and I'm proud to see that HR is now viewed as a business function rather than just a cost centre”
What type of culture and leadership is required to successfully manage through these difficult macroeconomic times?
I think transparency and setting clear goals is key. There is a phrase that we use as an executive team, which is the Spice Girls question “tell me what you want, what you really, really want”. This helps us to make sure that we focus on getting to the core of the task, prioritise, and don't focus on the things that don't matter, or are not part of your OKRs.
When it comes to setting clear boundaries, we need to either say “there are things that we won't focus on and here's the reason why” or, when it comes to transparency, we say “this is something we won't share with you”. This whole topic of redundancies or how much runway a company has is difficult to be completely open about but if you can try to give the company a heads-up on the direction you think you might be taking in 3 or 6 months then you should do, especially in this challenging climate.
With regards to diversity and inclusion, what a kind of approach have you taken, how have you measured it and how successful has it been?
As mentioned, when I first joined the company there were only eight people and I started focusing on gender diversity - it's something tangible and especially poignant when building a product that targets a 50:50 audience. I believe that diversity and inclusion are important business acumen, not just buzzwords, as you build better products when you have a diverse team. To that end, we provide training including interview and unconscious bias training, and also engage in role modelling. Gender diversity is relatively easy to measure, but other diversity elements require surveys, such as self-identifying race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. We started measuring diversity early to establish a baseline, and we then built programmes, sourcing solutions and ran events to improve diversity. Starting early frontloads the hard work and sets us up for success in hiring and for other initiatives down the line.
“We started measuring diversity early on to establish a baseline, which we then build programmes, sourcing and events to improve diversity”
Relating to hybrid work and its impact on fostering a cohesive culture, what is the right balance there that you've struck?
It’s a good question, and I think it's a complex issue without a simple answer. As an executive team, we made a conscious decision to be default digital or remote-first at our headquarters. The reason for this is that we believe we can attract and retain the best talent by offering the ability to work from anywhere within the same time zone. This is important because we have a high demand for talent in functions like software, hardware, operations, finance, and HR, and there is still a shortage of talent in these areas. However, we also have a local operations team that includes drivers and mechanics who need to be physically on the ground to operate our electric vehicles in the five cities where we currently operate. So, we have these two extremes: remote-first for most roles, but physical work required for our operations team.
What kind of practices, tools, and channels do you use to keep up to speed with the People function?
I’m a big fan of Lars Schmidt from Amplify, who has regular blog posts and an academy. He interviews great Chief People Officers and curates content from various articles. Another person I recommend is Josh Bersin, who I believe is still the analytical authority in HR. Additionally, I really enjoy networking events. Roles like this can be very lonely and sometimes you can feel like you don’t have anyone to talk to who is experiencing the same issues, so you need to find other people to discuss and debate with and help find solutions. There are also some slack groups and investor networks that I also occasionally turn to and that’s how I keep up to date.
I think the primary KPI for any organisation is performance and if you are achieving your goals whether it's measured by key performance indicators or OKRs. I believe HR plays a crucial role in achieving these goals by hiring, retaining, and developing employees. A a big focus is internal development so things like internal moves and how many people are you able to retain being a key metric. Another is the employee net promoter score (ENPS), which indicates whether employees would recommend the company as a great place to work. Additionally, time to hire is an interesting metric, particularly for operational teams that require quick hiring to onboard drivers and mechanics.
What KPIs really matter from your perspective as an HR leader?
“a big focus is also internal development so things like internal moves, and how many people are you able to retain is a key metric”
Any books, podcast, or other content that you can recommend?
Again, definitely Lars Schmidt from Amplify. Additionally, I really like the book No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention which I found interesting and useful. In fact, we drew a lot of inspiration from that book when we started our company, Dance as it discusses things like high talent density, freedom and responsibility - there's a lot of good stuff in there!